n email titled: “on Guru: Everyone is lying to you...”, written by Madhudvisa dasa (“MAD”), was circulated to different devotees over the course of a number of days in mid-to late January, 2013. The email presents a series of false allegations attacking The Final Order (“TFO”), the foundational paper of the IRM (ISKCON Revival Movement), and its author, Krishnakant. Below we expose how this email from MAD is full of blatant lies.
All the statements in the shaded boxes below will be excerpts taken from MAD’s email, with all emphases added, unless otherwise stated.
At the outset of the email, MAD asks:
“Please read it and if you have any questions please post them at: http://krishna.org/guru-everyone-is-lying-to-you/
And I will answer them there.”
A number of devotees asked questions to MAD about his email at the location mentioned above, and in response MAD presented a number of statements. Some of these statements will also be reproduced in the rebuttal below, referenced as “MAD website comment”.
“Everyone wants to be a guru. It is such a nice thing to have all those disciples worshiping you and giving you all their money… Even the greatest ritvik leader shouting out “Prabhupada is the guru”, Krishna Kant, also wants to be a guru. He has his philosophy, “The Final Order”, and wants everyone else to follow his philosophy.”
MAD describes wanting to be a guru as “having disciples worshiping you and giving you all their money”. He then claims that Krishnakant wishes to be such a guru due to the philosophy he presents in TFO. However, just two sentences later, MAD quotes from a paper he wrote called The Final Order – A Very Misleading Paper (“VMP”), to show that the philosophy presented by Krishnakant in TFO is that Srila Prabhupada did not authorise anyone (which obviously also includes Krishnakant), to be diksa guru and have disciples:
“Krishna Kant has attempted to prove that Srila Prabhupada did not intend any of his disciples to become diksa [initiating] gurus, ever.”
MAD therefore claims:
- To be guru means to have disciples worshiping you.
- Krishnakant states that neither he nor others should become such diksa gurus and be worshipped by disciples.
- Because Krishnakant states that he (and everyone else) should not be worshiped by disciples, this is proof that Krishnakant wants to be worshiped by disciples!
MAD is therefore claiming that Krishnakant stating what should not happen is itself the proof that it should happen! As we shall see, MAD starts as he means to continue, with such contradictory madness permeating his whole email.
““Prabhupada will be the only guru for the next 10,000 years” lie is Krishna Kant’s addition and this is also presented by Yasoda-Nandana Prabhu and ISKCON Bangalore. So they are perpetuating Krishna Kant’s lie: “Prabhupada did not want his disciples to become diksa gurus EVER!!!””
1) MAD first claims that Krishnakant states that Srila Prabhupada will be the only guru "for the next 10,000 years", and then in the next sentence claims that actually this will be for "EVER". Clearly, since 10,000 years is not "EVER", at least one of these statements must be a lie. Actually TFO states that Srila Prabhupada should be ISKCON's diksa guru for ISKCON's lifetime, which will be up to "9500 years", not 10,000 years.
So MAD is even lying about what he claims Krishnakant is lying about - twice!
2) MAD himself agrees with TFO's position that Srila Prabhupada should be ISKCON's diksa guru. In the follow-up comments to his email, MAD elaborates as follows:
“There is no need for formal initiation or any ritvik or anything. Prabhupada is living in his books and you can read his books and he will instruct you what you should do in your life and if, in this simple way, you surrender to Srila Prabhupada and serve him by following his instructions, you will be initiated by Srila Prabhupada.”
(MAD website comment, 21/1/2013)
“There is need for you to have a bona fide spiritual master and you have to surrender to him and serve him. So read Srila Prabhupada’s books and surrender to him and serve him and you will be very safe. If you can please Srila Prabhupada in this way he will give you diksa.”
(MAD website comment, 25/1/2013)
"All you have to do is read Srila Prabhupada’s books and follow the instructions Srila Prabhupada gives to you as you read his books and in this way if you surrender to Srila Prabhupada and serve him he will be very happy to accept you as his disciple.”
(MAD website comment, 27/1/2013)
MAD states that anyone who reads Srila Prabhupada’s books and follows them will automatically be initiated and accepted by Srila Prabhupada as his diksa disciple. And in a separate paper, MAD has stated that Srila Prabhupada’s books must always be read and followed:
"No matter what happens we have to preserve and distribute the original teachings of Srila Prabhupada and the main source of these teachings is Srila Prabhupada’s books.”
(MAD, “Warning from Madhudvisa dasa: ISKCON “Original Manuscript” Scam”, 31/10/2010, emphasis in original)
MAD is therefore claiming that as long as Srila Prabhupada’s books are read, which will at least be for ISKCON’s lifetime, Srila Prabhupada will become the diksa guru for whoever reads and follows these books. Thus, MAD is agreeing with TFO's conclusion that Srila Prabhupada should be ISKCON's diksa guru.
3) But MAD is not finished there. To emphasise his complete unconditional agreement with TFO, he also agrees that Srila Prabhupada established that he will continue to be the diksa guru of ISKCON by setting up a “ritvik” (proxy) system of initiation for ISKCON:
“Prabhupada only ever appointed 11 ritvik priests and empowered them to accept disciples on his behalf, and he empowered the GBC to add extra ritviks when necessary. And they all knew that very well. That is confirmed in writing and signed by Srila Prabhupada in his July 9th, 1977 letter. There are some fools in ISKCON that still lie that the July 9th letter was only for while Prabhupada was on the planet. But this is obviously false. […] To underline even further the fact that the July 9th letter is describing the system of initiations Prabhupada wants in ISKCON after he leaves his body Ramesvara duplicated and mailed out not just the July 9th letter, he stapeled it to Srila Prabhupada's last will, which obviously, like the July 9th letter, was related to how things would go on in ISKCON after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance.”
(MAD website comment, 20/1/2013)
“There is no question, Srila Prabhupada only appointed some of his disciples who he authorized to accept disciples on his behalf, that is all. And he empowered the GBC to add new ‘representatives of the acharya’ as needed.”
(MAD website comment, 20/1/2013)
MAD therefore provides two separate arguments agreeing with TFO’s conclusion that Srila Prabhupada should always be ISKCON's diksa guru:
a) Through the act of all ISKCON members continuing to read his books.
b) Through the “ritvik” system of initiation he established to continue accepting disciples in ISKCON.
In MAD’s paper, VMP, which we referenced earlier MAD quoting from in his email, MAD argues that Srila Prabhupada ordering diksa gurus means he is ordering gurus who will succeed him as ISKCON’s diksa guru:
“Clearly Srila Prabhupada is speaking of the “spiritual master’s succession,” he is speaking of himself as the current spiritual master and is requesting all of his disciples to “become spiritual master next.” Prabhupada is clearly talking of diksa gurus.”
(MAD, The Final Order – A Very Misleading Paper)
However, as just seen above, MAD has himself just proven that Srila Prabhupada is not succeeded as ISKCON’s diksa guru, since he continues to remain ISKCON’s diksa guru through the distribution and reading of his books and through the “ritvik” system. Thus, MAD agrees that since Srila Prabhupada never ceases to be ISKCON’s diksa guru, then according to his argument in VMP above, this means he could not have ordered any diksa gurus to succeed him as ISKCON’s diksa guru.
Thus, in conclusion, MAD himself states that:
Srila Prabhupada will remain ISKCON’s diksa guru, and thus did not order any diksa gurus to succeed him for ISKCON’s lifetime (which currently is due to be for a maximum of around 9500 years according to Srila Prabhupada - see Srimad-Bhagavatam, 8.5.23, purport).
Thus, when MAD states that:
““Prabhupada will be the only guru for the next 10,000 years” lie is Krishna Kant’s addition and this is also presented by Yasoda-Nandana Prabhu and ISKCON Bangalore.”
he is actually calling himself a liar, since he also accepts that Srila Prabhupada will always be ISKCON’s diksa guru for ISKCON’s lifetime!
“If any sincere person takes the time to read Srila Prabhupada’s books and letters he will find in reality Srila Prabhupada’s desire is that all of his disciples become QUALIFIED diksa gurus and accept disciples.”
1) In the books that MAD asks us to read, it states:
"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorized by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa vidhana."
(Srimad-Bhagavatam, 4.8.54, purport)
But there is no statement in the books wherein Srila Prabhupada states that he will stop initiating in ISKCON and instead authorises his disciples to succeed him as ISKCON’s diksa guru. Rather, as seen in the last section, MAD admits that Srila Prabhupada only authorised “ritviks” who would continue to ensure that Srila Prabhupada would remain ISKCON’s diksa guru.
2) MAD states:
“So the point is we know Srila Prabhupada is a pure devotee of Krishna, a bona fide guru, and such a great soul is very, very rare. So obviously we should accept him as our spiritual master and follow his instructions and become Krishna conscious.”
(MAD website comment, 25/1/2013)
“It is only very rarely we get the chance to have the association of a bona-fide spiritual master and Srila Prabhupada is a bona-fide spiritual master and you have the chance to associate with him so do it!!! Read his books and follow his instructions and you will have a bona-fide guru and you will be on the right path.”
(MAD website comment, 27/1/2013)
“As far as Srila Prabhupada, he is a bona fide guru, no one will argue that, he is living, anyone who argues with that is an ignorant and blind fool. Srila Prabhupada IS A LIVING GURU! So if one is so fortunate to accept Srila Prabhupada as his spiritual master he already has the best spiritual master and will not be looking for any other spiritual master. […] If you already have a bona fide spiritual master why would you be looking to take initiation from another, even if there was another bona-fide spiritual master available? This idea is very offensive and no real disciple who has actually got a bona fide spiritual master would ever consider it.”
(MAD website comment, 19/1/2013)
Hence, according to MAD:
a) We must accept Srila Prabhupada as our spiritual master.
b) This is achieved by reading his books (reiterating the same point made in the previous section).
c) Srila Prabhupada is the best spiritual master one can accept.
d) Thus, one should not look for any other spiritual master, even if bona fide, for such an idea is “very offensive”.
Thus, since MAD is arguing that everyone should always accept the best possible spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, and not look for anyone else, MAD has to accept that Srila Prabhupada could not possibly have ordered any other diksa gurus to also “accept disciples”, as all such potential disciples should already be Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Rather, such an action on the part of these gurus to “accept disciples” would constitute a great offence against Srila Prabhupada.
3) MAD also states:
“There is no way a neophyte devotee can tell who is a bona-fide guru and who is a cheater. That is why it is very, very dangerous to remain a neophyte devotee. You already know that Srila Prabhupada is a bona-fide guru. Surrender to him, serve him, read his books and strictly follow all the instructions he gives you when you are reading his books and then, if you surrender to him and serve him nicely you will get his mercy and he will be happy to accept you as his disciple and then by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada you will make advancement in spiritual life and be elevated to the platform of madhyama-adhakri and then you will be able to see who is a devotee, who is envious and who is innocent.”
(MAD website comment, 27/1/2013)
Hence, according to MAD:
Since one can not even recognise who is a genuine bona fide guru without first becoming a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, there would be no potential disciples for such gurus to accept! Therefore, again, Srila Prabhupada could not possibly have ordered any other diksa gurus to also “accept disciples”, since, as stated by MAD in the previous point, they could do so only at the risk of committing a great offence against Srila Prabhupada.
Thus, in the last two points, 2) and 3), MAD has presented even more arguments, to supplement the arguments presented in the last section, as to why Srila Prabhupada should be ISKCON's diksa guru, and thus could not have ordered diksa gurus who would “accept disciples”. Rather, to argue for their existence would mean claiming Srila Prabhupada deliberately ordered entities whose only function would be to commit great offences against himself! More madness from MAD.
“The Final Order […] But, as you may know, I have defeated Krishna Kant’s philosophy way back in 1996 when he first published his paper.”
After stating the above, MAD then gives a quotation from his paper VMP - part of which we presented earlier - as the evidence for his claim that he defeated TFO in 1996. In so doing, MAD again presents a number of lies:
1) VMP was written by MAD only in 2001, and not 1996.
2) VMP's assertions were repeatedly debunked at this time in 2001, and they can be read here:
Madhudvisa Defeats Madhudvisa
Madhudvisa’s Diksa Madhouse
and MAD has never been able to respond to these rebuttals.
3) And, most importantly, we have further presented an even more comprehensive rebuttal of VMP by MAD himself in the last 2 sections above, wherein he presents multiple arguments agreeing with the conclusion of TFO that Srila Prabhupada should be ISKCON's diksa guru, and therefore did not order other diksa gurus to succeed him.
Therefore, any arguments MAD makes wherein he attacks TFO’s conclusions and argues that Srila Prabhupada ordered diksa gurus can always be defeated simply by quoting MAD’s own statements!
“It is true, as Bhakti Vikasa Swami points out, that the main players in the ritvik field today are following the Krishna Kant “Final Order” philosophy and this philosophy has been defeated by Rocana Prabhu and also by myself many years ago.”
1) We have just established that MAD has not defeated TFO, but rather has agreed with its conclusions.
2) Thus, not just all the “main players in the ritvik field”, but MAD also, are following TFO!
3) We quoted MAD earlier stating:
“There are some fools in ISKCON that still lie that the July 9th letter was only for while Prabhupada was on the planet. But this is obviously false.”
(MAD website comment, 20/1/2013)
But Rocana's response to TFO is based on claiming (but utterly failing to establish) that the July 9th letter names representatives who will only act "while Srila Prabhupada is present" (Rocana Dasa, Concluding Remarks, Defeat of Ritvik-Vada). Which MAD states above means that Rocana must be a fool and a liar. Yet, MAD also claims that Rocana arguing such a “fool” and “obviously false” thesis defeats TFO’s conclusions; conclusions which we have already established that MAD actually agrees with! MAD is therefore stating that he must also be a fool, since he endorses such a foolish thesis! Please go to www.iskconirm.com/illiteracy to see Rocana dasa's "fool" reply to TFO comprehensively dismantled, wherein it will be shown that, like MAD above, Rocana also ends up actually endorsing the conclusions of TFO!
Clearly, MAD is an individual who will say anything and everything, while contradicting himself at every turn.
“the South Indian brahmanas are very upset at Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON for making westerners Vaisnavas and worse still making westerners sannyasis and gurus."
MAD here claims that both “Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON” made “westerners sannyasis and gurus” (emphasis added). But there is no record of Srila Prabhupada having ever made “gurus”. And MAD himself agrees that this is a fact:
“I am absolutely not trying to establish that Srila Prabhupada left diksa gurus. That is an ISKCON lie.”
(MAD website comment, 20/1/2013)
“And why do the ritviks lie and say “Prabhupada did not want any of his disciples to become diksa gurus, EVER!!!” […] The other, more insidious motivation, is that Krishna Kant is of South Indian descent and the Indian brahmanas, particularly the South Indian brahmanas are very upset at Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON for making westerners Vaisnavas and worse still making westerners sannyasis and gurus.”
Connected to his lie about Srila Prabhupada which was just exposed, MAD also launches a racial attack on Krishnakant, claiming that he presented the conclusion of TFO only because he is South Indian. However:
1) MAD is not of South Indian or brahminical descent, yet, as seen earlier in this rebuttal, he also agrees with TFO’s conclusions! And so do many non-Indian-bodied devotees all over the world. Thus, agreement with TFO’s conclusions does not require one to be of a particular racial origin. Therefore, this racial attack is contradictory.
2) Even in presenting this nonsense racial attack, MAD cannot help but lie, since Krishnakant is not in any case of South Indian descent.
3) Such a racial attack from MAD would be unnecessary if MAD had any philosophy by which to demonstrate that Srila Prabhupada should be succeeded as ISKCON’s diksa guru. But we have seen that MAD has no such philosophy, since all his arguments can be defeated by his own statements agreeing in toto with all the conclusions presented by Krishnakant.
Hence, MAD is forced to resort to a groundless, personal, racial attack, with which to conclude his email, to supplement the personal attack he made on Krishnakant at the outset of his email, wherein he falsely accused Krishnakant of wanting to be a diksa guru who wants to be worshiped by disciples. Thus, by starting and ending his email in this way, MAD reveals that the whole purpose of his email was only to personally attack Krishnakant, which he then pads out with various contradictory and ludicrous claims.
“It is not only the ritviks who lie about the guru issue. ISKCON is lying also [… ] So ISKCON is lying and and the ritviks are lying.”
We have demonstrated conclusively above that:
a) MAD has presented no evidence that those who support TFO and the fact that Srila Prabhupada should be ISKCON's diksa guru, whom MAD calls “ritviks”, are lying. Rather, MAD continually agrees with these conclusions.
b) Rather, it is MAD who has been shown to engage in non-stop lying.
- MAD has been exposed as presenting a series of non-stop lies and contradictions;
- Which has been revealed to be the case by MAD’s own statements;
- All of which has been engaged in due to a desire to personally attack Krishnakant.
Return to IRM Homepage