From: "Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Subject: The Reak Final Order
Date: 12 August 2017 at 02:51:00 BST
To: irm@iskconirm.com
Srila Prabhupada: He's guru, He's guru.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: He is guru! Why? Because he will conduct the fire sacrifice and
give the name and chant on the beads. But consider that he is a guru that
must remain loyal to Srila Prabhupada's ainstitution and work cooperatively
with it under the managerial authority of the GBC. If a guru wants his
disciple to join him from some temple he has to get the permisson of the
local temple authorities This is not the traditional guru disciple
relationship but it is what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Otherwise how will the
institution remain united?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should
not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order..Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be
actually guru, but by my order.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: Here Srila Prabhupada is saying two things. One is that he will
appoint some of his leading disciples to act as riviks, like it had been
done before in 1974, to initiate disciple on behalf of His Divine Grace.
Then he is also saying that when I order they can become actually guru. The
FINAL ORDER is not given yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
Tamal Krsna: No, he's asking that these ritvik acaryas, they are
officiating, giving diksa. Their...The people who they give diksa to, whose
disciples are they?
Srila Prabhupada: They're his disciples.
Tamal Krsna: They're his disciples.
Srila Prabhupada: Who is intitiating. He is granddisciple.
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Tamal Krsna: That's clear.
Satsvarupa: The we have a question concer....
Srila Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru.
That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: Remember this exchange takes place after Srila Prabhupada has
called all the GBC to come to be with him, and these question are being
presented in a formal way by the GBC spokesperson. It is not just a casual
conversation. But this is not the Final Order.
The next important conversation on this issue takes place on July 7' 1977.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? We're receiving a number of letters now, and
these are people who want to get initiated. So up until now, since your
becoming ill, we asked them to wait.
Prabhupada: The local, men, senior sannyasi can do that.
Tamala Krsna: That's what we were doing... I mean, formerly we were... The
local GBC, sannyasis were chanting on their beads, and they were writing to
Your Divine Grace, and you were giving a spiritual name. So should that
process be resumed, or should we...? I mean one thing is that it's said that
the spiritual master takes on the... You know, he takes on the... He has to
cleanse the disciple by... So we don't want that you should have to... Your
health is not so good, so that should not be... That's why we've been asking
everybody to wait. I just want to know if we should continue to wait some
more time.
Prabhupada: No, the senior sannyasis...
Tamal Krsna: So they should continue to...
Prabhupada: You can give me a list of sannyasis I will mark who will...
Tamal Krsna: Okay.
Prabhupada: You can do. Kirtanananda can do. And our Satsvarupa can do. So
these three, you can give, begin.
Tamal Krsna: So supposing someone is in America, should they simply write
directly to Kirtanananda or Satsvarupa?
Prabhupada: Nearby. Jayatirtha can give.
Tamal Krsna: Jayatirtha.
Prabhupada: Bhavanan.., er, Bhagavan. And he can do also. Harikesa.
Tamal Krsna: Harikesa Maharja.
Prabhupada: And... Five, six men, you divide who is nearest.
Tamal Krsna: Who is nearest. So persons wouldn't have to write to Your
Divine Grace. They could write directly to that person?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamal Krsna: Actually they are initiating the person on Your Divine Grace's
behalf. Those persons who are initiated are still your...
Prabhupada: Second initiation we shall think over, second initiation.
Tamal Krsna: This is for first initiation, okay. And for second initiation,
for the time being they should...
Prabhupada: No, they have to wait. Second initiation, that should be
given...
Tamal Krsna: Should... Some devotees are writing you now for second
initiation, and I'm writing them to wait a while because you're not well. So
can I continue to tell them that?
Prabhupada: They can do second initiation.
Tamal Krsna: By writing you.
Prabhupada: No. These men.
Tamal Krsna: These men, they can also do second initiation. So there's no
need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can
write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your
disciples. Anybody who gives initiation is doing so on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamal Krsna: You know that book I'm maintaining of all of your disciples'
names? Should I continue that?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamal Krsna: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikesa Maharaja, he
should send the person's name to us here and I'll enter it in the book.
Okay. Is there someone else in India that you want to do this?
Prabhupada: India, I am here. We shall see. In India, Jayapataka.
Tamal Krsna: Jayapataka Maharaja.
Prabhupada: You are also in India.
Tamal Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: You can note down these names.
Tamal Krsna: Yes, I have them.
Prabhupada: Who are they?
Tamal Krsna: Kirtanananda Maharaja, Satsvarupa Maharaja, Jayatirta Prabhu,
Bhagavan Prabhu, Harikesa Maharaja, Jayapataka Maharaja and Tamala Krsna
Maharaja.
Prabhupada: That's nice. Now you distribute.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: Here Srila Prabhupada is telling his secretary Tamal Krsna
Maharaja to inform the society that he has appointed these people to
initiate on his behalf as ritviks. He did that the next day on July 8 1977
but it is not his FINAL ORDER, that comes Oct 18 1977.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tamal Krsna: Seven. There's seven names.
Prabhupada: For the time being, seven names, sufficient. You can make
Ramesvara.
Tamal Krsna: Ramesvara Maharaja.
Prabhupada: And Hridayananda.
Tamal Krsna: Oh, yeah. South America.
Prabhupada: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right...
That will depend on discretion.
Tamal Krsna: On discretion
-------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: Who will exercise that discretion?
Naturally it will be the GBC body who Srila Prabhupada in his last will made
the final authority of Iskcon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamal Krsna: That's for first and second initiations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: The Next and final conversation on this issue takes place on
Oct. 18th 1977.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?
Tamal Krsna: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.
Prabhupada: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?
Tamal Krsna: Yes. Actually... Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have already
deputed. Tell him.
Tamal Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?
Bhagavan: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that
list.
Prabhupada: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him.
I stop for the time being. Is that all right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: From July 8th'77 until this point Srila Prabhupada has been
initiating disciple via his ritvik representives. Now he wants to stop doing
that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tamal Krsna: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear
or not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: By now Srila Prabhupada is very ill. He has lost a tremendous
amount of weight and has practically no strength even to shift himself in
his bed. Now Srila Prabhupada is giving his FINAL ORDER. He wants his
disciples who he has appointed to begin initiating their own disciples.
Otherwise what can he mean when he says he is stopping this initiation but
he still wants Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury to be initiated. It is simple for
the simple. This is his FINAL ORDER on this subject.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Giriraja: It's clear.
Prabhupada: You have got the list of the names?
Tamal Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: And if by Krsna's grace I recover from this condition, then I
shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It
is not good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment: Now he has stopped the system of having some of his leading
disciples initiate on his behalf. The letter of July 8, written by his
secretary, was NOT his FINAL ORDER as some are claiming. Here is his FINAL
ORDER.
I was there in Vrndaban for this whole saga. Everyone knew there was a list
of disciples who were to become gurus, if, and when, Srila Prabhupada left
the planet As a matter of fact it was years after Srila Prabhupada left the
planet before anyone even doubted this clear system. Only when gurus
starting falling down did the doubts come. Devotees then, and many still,
couldn't bring themselves to believe that Srila Prabhupada would have left
us with a system which led to so much abuse. Therefore the reaction has come
about in the form of the ritvik movement. But it is in fact a most
reactionary movement, not based on guru, sadhu, or shasta.
Your servant,
Trivikrama Swami
From: IRM <irm@iskconirm.com>
Subject: Re: The Reak Final Order
Date: 17 August 2017 at 02:41:37 BST
To: Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Dear Maharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for sending us your article below. In this you claim that on October 18th, 1977, Srila Prabhupada gave Jayapataka Maharaja (JPS) a “Final Order” to immediately become a diksa guru and initiate Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury as his own disciple.
However, there are at least 7 proofs that this was not a final order for JPS to become a diksa guru:
1) Srila Prabhupada asks JPS to act according to a “list” of names he had given:
Srila Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the..., my disciples. Is it clear or not?
Giriraja: It's clear.
Prabhupada: You have got the list of the names?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
(Room Conversation, 18th, October, 1977)
However, the only time Srila Prabhupada had ever given a list of names in respect of initiation, was in the July 9th, 1977 directive. Thus, we know for a fact that Srila Prabhupada is ordering Jayaptaka to act according to the list given in this directive. There it states clearly that those on the list would only ever act on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf to produce Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples:
"Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second
initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. […] these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupad […] The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad”.
(July 9th, 1977 directive to all temples and GBCs)
Thus, those named in this list where “deputed” to act only as ritviks.
2) That JPS is being instructed on October 18th, 1977 to act as a “ritvik”, and not a diksa guru, is confirmed by Srila Prabhupada stating:
Srila Prabhupada: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.
Tamala Krsna: Yes.
Srila Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?
Bhagavan: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada.
(Room Conversation, 18th, October, 1977)
Srila Prabhupada states that JPS is to function based on him having been “already deputed”. This deputation, as we just saw, took place in the July 9th, 1977 directive, where Srila Prabhupada appointed representatives or “ritviks”. Thus, Srila Prabhupada is stating that JPS must act according to the deputation that had “already” occurred on July 9th, 1977. This, as we just saw was to initiate disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada as initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Hence, one cannot claim that those named on the “list” as “deputies" were to now change the function they had been assigned as deputies on that list in the July 9th, 1977 directive. Rather, JPS's function is to be the same as when he had been deputed, and thus Srila Prabhupada states that JPS is to act now as a deputy, rather than a diksa guru.
3) Srila Prabhupada had already stated earlier that it was not possible for a disciple to initiate in Srila Prabhupada's physical presence, otherwise it would break the “law of disciplic succession”. Thus, Srila Prabhupada could not have been giving an order on October 18th, 1977 for Jayapataka to go and initiate his own disciple, as then he would be acting as a diksa guru in Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence, which Srila Prabhupada had already expressly forbidden.
4) As detailed in the July 9th, 1977 directive, the ritvik system enabled initiations to occur by Temple presidents sending a recommendation to a ritvik, who would give a spiritual name, and then the temple president would perform a fire yajna. Thus, Srila Prabhupada was not involved at all in the process, and this process of initiation therefore does not depend at all on Srila Prabhupada’s physical condition. Hence, when Srila Prabhupada states:
"And if by Krsna's grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate."
(Room Conversation, 18th, October, 1977)
clearly this cannot be a referring to the July 9th, 1977 directive ritvik initiation system needing to be stopped, as this was not affected at all by Srila Prabhupada’s physical “condition”, since it had been operating continuously since July 1977 without Srila Prabhupada’s physical involvement. Hence, this supports the points made above, that Jayapataka is being asked to initiate according to this July 9th, 1977 directive, in which he was named in the “list” as one of the “deputies”, because this system of initiation is not being stopped here.
5) Therefore, when Srila Prabhupada states:
Srila Prabhupada: I stop for the time being. Is that all right?
Tamala Krsna: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?
Srila Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the..., my disciples. Is it clear or not?
(Room Conversation, 18th, October, 1977)
it can only be referring to that activity which does depend on his physical “condition”. And this was him physically conducting an initiation in person, rather than using ritviks or “deputies” as detailed in the July 9th, 1977 directive. Because when Srila Prabhupada was setting up the ritvik system, in the July 7th, 1977 room conversation quoted by you below, Srila Prabhupada names himself in addition to Jayapataka (and Tamala Krishna), as being able to also participate in conducting initiations in India:
Tamala Krsna: “So if someone gives initiation, like Harikesa Maharaja, he should send the person's name to us here, and I'll enter it in the book. Okay. Is there someone else in India that you want to do this?”
Srila Prabhupada: “India, I am here. We shall see. In India, Jayapataka.”
Tamala Krsna: “Jayapataka Maharaja.”
Srila Prabhupada: “You are also in India.”
Tamala Krsna: “Yes.”
Prabhupada: “You can note down these names.”
(Room conversation, July 7th, 1977)
Clearly, since Srila Prabhupada is not listed in the July 9th, 1977 directive alongside the other names he mentions of JPS and Tamala Krishna, he is referring to conducting initiations himself in person physically, if he was approached personally and if he was physically well enough to do so. And this was the exact situation we had here, because Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury had flown all the way from New York to Vrindavana to get initiated by Srila Prabhupada in person:
Srila Prabhupada: “Hare Krsna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?”
Tamala Krsna: “Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.”
Srila Prabhupada: “So I have deputed some of you to initiate.”
(Room conversation, 18/10/77)
And thus, because Srila Prabhupada is physically unwell, he asks that the initiation therefore instead be carried out by the system where he has already “deputed some of you to initiate” - which was done via the July 9th, 1977 directive where he names ritviks/deputies to act on his behalf - in particular asking JPS to do so because he had been named as a ritvik/deputy who could do this for India.
6) Srila Prabhupada states that whatever he was stopping was temporary, and that he would resume again if his health would allow:
"So I depute him to do this at Mayapur, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. […] And if by Krsna's grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again"
(Room conversation, 18/10/77)
Thus, Srila Prabhupada could not be issuing a “final order” to Jayapataka to succeed him as a diksa guru, because he is not, in any case, intending to stop initiating permanently, and thus no final order for succession could be given. Rather, as shown above, Srila Prabhupada is actually referring to temporarily stopping participating in physically carrying out initiations in India in person, and to resume doing this if and when his health recovers, which sadly it did not.
7) Since Srila Prabhupada’s health did not recover after 18th October, 1977, if Srila Prabhupada had been referring in this conversation to stopping initiating via the July 9th, 1977 system of using ritviks or “deputies”, then for the latter half of October and November, there would be zero disciples initiated by Srila Prabhupada. However, the "Srila Prabhupada disciples database", maintained by BBT online, shows that through October and November, right up until Srila Prabhupada physically departed, dozens of disciples continued to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada. Thus, we know for a fact that Srila Prabhupada did not stop initiating disciples via this ritvik system after October 18th, 1977, and thus this was not what he was referring to “stopping” in this conversation. Hence, when he asks JPS to initiate as a “deputy”, he is asking him to continue initiating via the July 9th, 1977 ritvik/deputy system, as it was still in place as the standard method of initiation for ISKCON worldwide.
Thank you,
Your servant,
Krishnakant
From: "Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Subject: Re: The Reak Final Order
Date: 18 September 2017 at 01:42:00 BST
To: "IRM" <irm@iskconirm.com>
Dear Prabhu,
PAMHO AGTSP!
Check it out.
https://lastingimpression.info/rtvik_killers/
Ys TS
From: IRM <irm@iskconirm.com>
Subject: Re: The Reak Final Order
Date: 19 September 2017 at 19:27:01 BST
To: Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Dear Maharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
1) You have avoided responding to our reply below, but instead have directed us to another person making some other arguments. Your silence in the face of our rebuttal is very telling, for Srila Prabhupada states:
"If they remain silent, that means they have accepted. I charge you that "You are thief," and if you don't protest, then you are thief. If you are not thief, immediately you will: "How you say? Why you have said?" There will be fight. But if you remain silent, that proves that you are thief. So they could not give us any counter-argument. Therefore they accepted."
(Srila Prabhupäda Morning Walk, 17/5/1975)
Hence, as you were unable to present any counter-arguments to your allegation about JPS being defeated in *7* different ways, it means you have accepted.
2) The arguments you have directed us to are even weaker than the ones you presented, because they are simply “straw-arguments” which were answered over 2 decades ago in our paper “The Final Order”. In addition, these arguments directly offend and attack Srila Prabhupada, and it is unfortunate that you have now been implicated in this offence by supporting this person’s arguments. All this will be exposed later in our publications.
Thank you.
Your servant,
Krishnakant
From: "Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
Date: 20 September 2017 at 20:30:00 BST
To: "IRM" <irm@iskconirm.com>
Dear Prabhu
PAMHO AGTSP!
I have been reading Sri Bhaktyaloka by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. He
mentions there that we should avoid prajalpa one of which is useless
arguments. This is why I have hesitated to respond to you.
He also mentions from the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindh that "One should strictly
follow the easy path that the previous mahajanas have accepted. That path
bestows great auspiciousness and is devoid of all misery." (end of quote)
Then he goes on to say, "Our mahajana's path is that which was shown by
Srila Vyasadeva, Sukadeva Goswami, Prahlada Maharaja, Sri Caitanya
Mahaprabhu and His associates. We are not to leave that path to follow the
instructions of new puffed-up devotees...." (end of quote)
So why, except being puffed-up by your good intelligence, have you created
this new path where the previous spiritual master continues to give diksha
initiation after his manifest vapu is no longer visable on the planet. This
has NEVER been done in a systematic, organized way, by any Vaisnavas in all
of history. So why are you recommending it? It reveals your stupidity
instead of your intelligent to think that you know better than ALL the
previous acaryas.
I have had a lot of association both vani, and vapu, of Srila Prabhupada and
I am 100% sure that he would not be ready to accept as his diksha disciples
everyone who joins his movement for the next 10,000 years.
In the Nectar of Devotion, sometimes referred to as our Law Book, Srila
Prabhupada mentions.
"In the Seventh Canto of Srimad-Bhägavatam, Thirteenth Chapter, verse 8,
Närada Muni, while discussing with Mahäräja Yudhisthira the various
functions of the different orders in society, especially mentions rules for
the sannyäsés, those persons who have renounced this material world. One who
has accepted the sannyäsa order of life is forbidden to accept as a disciple
anyone who is not fit. A sannyäsé should first of all examine whether a
prospective student is sincerely seeking Krishna consciousness. If he is
not, he should not be accepted. However, Lord Caitanya's causeless mercy is
such that He advised all bona fide spiritual masters to speak about Krishna
consciousness everywhere. Therefore, in the line of Lord Caitanya even the
sannyäsés can speak about Krishna consciousness everywhere, and if someone
is seriously inclined to become a disciple, the sannyäsi always accepts him.
The one point is that without increasing the number of disciples, there is
no propagation of the cult of Krishna consciousness. Therefore, sometimes
even at a risk, a sannyäsi in the line of Caitanya Mahäprabhu may accept
even a person who is not thoroughly fit to become a disciple. Later on, by
the mercy of such a bona fide spiritual master, the disciple is gradually
elevated. However, if one increases the number of disciples simply for some
prestige or false honor, he will surely fall down in the matter of executing
Krishna consciousness."
(end quote)
It is true that many so called gurus failed to live up to the challenge that
Srila Prabhupada offered them..to become regular gurus, and thus fell down
but that does not mean we can change the eternal system of parampara.
In Chapter six of the Nectar of Devotion it is stated, "He mentions the
basic principles as follows: (1) accepting the shelter of the lotus feet of
a bona fide spiritual master, (2) becoming initiated by the spiritual master
and learning how to discharge devotional service from him, (3) obeying the
orders of the spiritual master with faith and devotion, (4) following in the
footsteps of great äcäryas (teachers) under the direction of the spiritual
master.....(end quote)
Please note he indicated two kinds of spiritual masters, the great acaryas
like Srila Prabhupada and regular spiritual masters.
Anyway if you would like to hear more from me in a non-challenging mood I
give class every evening here at Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon temple in
Orlando. You are most welcome to attend.
Otherwise I am not interested in debating this issue ad nausam on the
interenet so kindly do not expect me to respond as I am content to allow
history to reveal who is correct.
Yours sincerely
Trivikrama Swami
From: IRM <irm@iskconirm.com>
Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
To: Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Dear Maharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am not asking for any “argument”, but rather wish to inquire from you in a non-challenging mood, since as you say you have had a lot of association with Srila Prabhupada’s vani. I am inquiring where Srila Prabhupada said he would be reversing his consistent teaching that the disciple should not initiate in the physical presence of the guru, since you claim Srila Prabhupada engaged in such a reversal on October 18th, 1977, by asking Jayapataka Maharaja.
to initiate Mr Sukamal Roy Chowdury as his own disciple, even though Srila Prabhupada would still be physically present, and Srila Prabhupada had been continuing to initiate via the ritvik system at this time, as proven by the BBT “Srila Prabhupada Disciple Database”.
Thank you.
Your servant,
Krishnakant
From: "Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
Date: 23 September 2017 at 03:12:00 BST
To: "IRM" <irm@iskconirm.com>
Dear Maharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am not asking for any “argument”, but rather wish to
inquire from you in a non-challenging mood, since as you say you have had
a lot of association with Srila Prabhupada’s vani. I am inquiring where
Srila Prabhupada
said he would be reversing his consistent teaching that the disciple
should not initiate in the physical presence
of the guru, since you claim Srila Prabhupada engaged in such a reversal
on October 18th, 1977, by asking Jayapataka Maharaja.
to initiate Mr Sukamal Roy Chowdury as his own disciple, even though Srila
Prabhupada would still be physically present,
Prabhu,
PAMHO AGTSP!
Here is the reason as given by Srila Prabhupada himself:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prabhupada: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him.
I stop for the time being. Is that all right?
Tamal Krsna: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear
or not?
Giriraja: It's clear.
Prabhupada: You have got the list of the names?
Tamal Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: And if by Krsna's grace I recover from this condition, then I
shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It
is not good. (end quote) Oct 18th, 1977
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems clear to me.
The general rule is, as you say "that the disciple should not initiate in
the physical presence of the guru" But if the guru orders otherwise then
that order should be accepted. There are other case in the history of our
pararampara when gurus have requested their disciples to initiate even when
they were still present. Give me a day or two and I will find the
references... or you may already know them.
Ys TS
From: IRM <irm@iskconirm.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
Date: 23 September 2017 at 14:02:31 BST
To: Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Dear Maharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
You have quoted Srila Prabhupada stating that he wants Jayapataka Maharaja to act
according to how he had already been “deputed” to act:
“So I depute him to do this at Mayapura […] I have deputed the, my disciples”.
And thus, right before this Srila Prabhupada states Jayapataka was on a list of “deputies” already given:
Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?
Bhagavan: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that list
Thus, we are both in agreement that Jayapataka Maharaja is being told to act according to how he had already been deputed to act as a deputy on this list, as this is what you have quoted. There is no argument between us here. So can you please tell me which list of deputies that contains Jayapataka’s name Srila Prabhupada refers to here?
Thank you
Your servant,
Krishnakant
From: "Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
Date: 23 September 2017 at 16:50:00 BST
To: "IRM" <irm@iskconirm.com>
Dear Prabhu
PAMHO AGTSP!
You have quoted Srila Prabhupada stating that he wants Jayapataka Maharaja
to act according to how he had already been “deputed” to act:
“So I depute him to do this at Mayapura [.] I have deputed the, my
disciples”.
And thus, right before this Srila Prabhupada states Jayapataka was on a
list of “deputies” already given:
Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?
Bhagavan: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that list
Thus, we are both in agreement that Jayapataka Maharaja is being told to
act according to how he had already been deputed to act
as a deputy on this list, as this is what you have quoted. There is no
argument between us here. So can you please tell me which list of deputies
that contains Jayapataka’s name Srila Prabhupada refers to here?
The list of prospective gurus that he gave to Tamal Krishna Maharaja in July
1977, who were to act as rikviks until he ordered them to become "regular
gurus".
Here he is ordering!
Why?
Srila Prabhupada: I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate.I stop
for the time being. Is that all right?
Tamal Krsna: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?
Srila Prabhupada: This initiation....
Srila Prabhupada: And if by Krsna's grace I recover from this condition,
then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to
initiate. It is not good.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From common sense point if Srila Prabhupada is not willing to initiate
because his body is sick how can we conclude that he would be willing to
initiate when his body is in samadhi covered by heaps of salt?
From sastric point this posthumous initiating has never been done as a
regular function by ANY of the gurus in our sampradaya.
Yours sincerely
Trivikrama Swami
From: IRM <irm@iskconirm.com>
Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
To: Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Dear Maharaja,
PAMHO AGTSP!
Since you may be resistant to accepting the evidence if it comes via me, I will present it instead via your authority, the GBC. The GBC accept the following letter from Srila Prabhupada’s secretary HH Tamal Krishna Maharaja (TKG). TKG is the same person that Srila Prabhupada actually instructs to tell Jayapataka Maharaja that he should handle the initiation of Mr Sukamal Roy Chowdury, and on the very same day that Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to do this, TKG issued the following letter to Vasudeva in Fiji explaining that though Srila Prabhupada is very sick, the ritvik system of initiation given by him in July is to be continued:
"Although His Divine Grace is very ill, still he is so much interested in Fiji and the Krishna-Kaliya Temple that I thought it proper to read your Letter to: Him. Srila Prabhupada heard everything with great attention. Srila Prabhupada was very pleased to know that book distribution is being increased with the ample assistance of householders living outside the temple. Prabhupada said that any of these sincere householders should be initiated. “Increase the number of devotees there. You initiate them with a fire ceremony. I have already named eleven of my disciples so you can write to any of them the recommended persons and after receiving the spiritual name, you can hold a fire ceremony. Your idea for dressing the Deity is very good. Krishna’s lotus feet should always be visible. But Krishna should not have too short a dress, that will not look nice. Yes, the Nagapatnis tails may also show. Please send a photograph showing how nicely the Deities look now. I will be very happy to see it. Yes, you may initiate the wife of Bhuhan Mohan Das she may help with the Deity worship.”
In general, Srila Prabhupada’s main desire is that you should increase the number of devotees. In this regard, His Divine Grace said, “Initiate the local natives. Ask them to give up their bad habits and become Vaisnavas.” Four times while Srila Prabhupada heard your letter, He stressed this point of increasing the number of followers there. So just as when Srila Prabhupada went to America, He was very merciful and lenient in giving out first initiations, so you may also be. If someone has agreed to follow the regulative principles and has been attending the temple for some time and chanting rounds, you can encourage them by giving initiation. You may send the names of such worthy persons to any one of the eleven devotees whom Srila Prabhupada has designated to initiate on His behalf, and after receiving the sanctified beads and new names, you can then perform the initiation ceremony. In this way spread very vigorously his glorious movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and try to make Fiji the first Krishna conscious country in the world.
Hoping this meets you in the best of health and Krishna consciousness.
Your servant,
Tamal Krishna Gosvami
Secretary to Srila Prabhupada"
(October 18th, 1977)
(the letter is available in the Bhaktivedanta Vedabase).
————————————
The parts underlined by me refer to the exact same ritvik system given in the July letter. Thus, despite Srila Prabhupada having the same grave illness he mentions in the conversation about the “deputies" on the same day, Vasudeva is being asked to initiate the local people by the same ritvik system given in the July letter - he is to write to any of the 11 ritviks named in July to initiate on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, who will then send back a name etc. This is confirmed by the fact that the Srila Prabhupada disciples database, maintained by the BBT and also accepted by the GBC, shows Srila Prabhupada continuing to initiate disciples by this “deputy” method given in July, through October and November 1977 right up until his physical departure. Hence, Srila Prabhupada did not stop initiating via this ritvik “deputy" method on October 18th. Rather, Srila Prabhupada is referring only to not initiating Mr Chowdury by physically performing the initiation ceremony himself, since he had flown all the way from New York to Vrindavana specifically to get initiated in person by Srila Prabhupada. But since Srila Prabhupada was not well enough to conduct such initiation ceremonies himself, he instead asks TKG to tell JPS to do it as a “deputy”, which was a reference to the ritvik system he gave in July, as you state below.
The GBC accept that this is what the above letter from TKG states.
Thank You.
Your servant,
Krishnakant
From: "Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
Date: 25 September 2017 at 17:15:00 BST
To: "IRM" <irm@iskconirm.com>
Dear Prabhu
PAMHO AGTSP!
I don't think the GBC is always right and certainly I don't believe that
Tamal was always right. But Srila Prabhupada's words were clear.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tamal Krsna: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: This initiation....
-------------------------------------------------------------------
That Tamal didn't send this instruction to the whole of Iskcon is not
surprising. First of all Srila Prabhupada didn't ask him to, secondly it was
a conditional instruction. As Srila Prabhupada say, "And if by Krsna's grace
I recover from this condition,then I shall begin again, or I may not be
pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good."
I was there in those days. We didn't think Srila Prabhupada was about to
leave. He hadn't finished translating the Bhagavatam, we need him so much.
So naturally we thought that by Krishna's grace he would recover and the
ritvik system would continue.
From common sense point again. Srila Prabhupada was an expert communicator.
How was it possible that NO ONE thought that his directive of having his
disciples give initiation on his behalf was to continue after he left his
body. NO ONE!!!
Even the initial critics like Pradumnya and Yasonandana didn't think that.
No one did. Srila Prabhupada was so dull that he couldn't have explained it
to us clearly? No! You can be sure that if he was seriously considering to
be the diksha guru for the next 10,000 years he would have told us so very,
very CLEARLY.
You take one word,"henceforth", written by his disciple to hang you whole
movement on???? And when ask, Tamal informed us that when he used that word
he was thinking until Srila Prabhupada left his body.
Only 3-4 years later, when the gurus started to have gross fall downs, did
this idea get any support.
I can understand that you are attached to this conception but please with
the ax of detachment give up this bogus idea.
Yours sincerely
Trivikrama Swami
From: IRM <irm@iskconirm.com>
Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
To: Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Dear Maharaja,
PAMHO AGTSP
In the letter dated October 18th, 1977, Tamal is stating that he is simply relaying Srila Prabhupada’s words as they were dictated to him by Srila Prabhupada, and hence I assume you accept the contents of that letter?
Thank you.
Your servant,
Krishnakant
From: "Trivikrama Swami" <Trivikrama.Swami@pamho.net>
Subject: Re: The Real Final Order
Date: 28 September 2017 at 03:02:00 BST
To: "IRM" <irm@iskconirm.com>
Dear Prabhu
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Ys TS
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