Indradyumna "Swami"- no time for Govinda Prema Das |
The following is an exchange between His Holiness Indradyumna Maharaja (IDS), a GBC voted-in ISKCON Guru, and Govinda Prema Das from Paris, France. Since IDS acts as successor Diksa Guru to Srila Prabhupada and must be worshipped as ‘good as God’ by his many thousands of disciples, Govinda Prema asked IDS for his authorisation from Srila Prabhupada to occupy this position. As will be seen, IDS’s response was basically to claim that he had no time to reply to this most significant question. |
------- Original Message ---------------------------------------
From: Govinda Prema
To: Indradyumna.swami@pamho.net
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 3:35 PM
Subject: Diksa guru
Dear Maharaja,
PAMHO AGTSP
I just read "Diary of a travelling preacher, Volume 6, chapter 9". Is it possible to know when and where Srila Prabhupada gave you the order to become an initiating spiritual master ?
Y.s. Govinda Prema d.
----- Original Message ---------------------------------------------------
From: "Indradyumna Swami" <Indradyumna.Swami@pamho.net>
To: "Govinda Prema" <govindaprema@wanadoo.fr>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 1:06 PM
Subject: Diksa guru
Dear Govinda Prema,
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila
Prabhupada.
Thank you for your letter.
I didn't receive a personal instruction from Srila Prabhupada as
regards initiating disciples. Like others who are accepting
disciples, I understood that is his desire from reading his books
and hearing his lecture tapes. In his absence, those things are our guiding light.
I pray you are well.
Your servant,
Indradyumna Swami
----- Original Message -----
From: "Govinda Prema" <govindaprema@wanadoo.fr>
To: "Indradyumna Swami" <Indradyumna.Swami@pamho.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Diksa guru
Dear Maharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you so much for responding to me.
You are most correct that in Srila Prabhupada's absence, his books and tapes are our guiding lights. I was wondering if there were any specific passages in the books which convinced you to become a Diksa Guru.
Thank you,
Your servant, Govinda Prema d.
----- Original Message ----------------------------------------------------
From: "Indradyumna Swami" <Indradyumna.Swami@pamho.net>
To: "Govinda Prema" <govindaprema@wanadoo.fr>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: Diksa guru
Dear Govinda Prema,
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for your reply.
Your servant,
Indradyumna Swami
"How I can become guru and deliver them?" Caitanya MahAprabhu said it
Is not at all difficult. YAre dekha tAre kaha 'kRSNa'-upadeza [Cc. Madhya 7.128].
This is your qualification. If you simply deliver the message given by
KRSNa you become guru. KRSNa said, sarva-dharmAn parityajya mAm ekaM zaraNaM
Vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You preach, you request everyone, "Sir, you surrender to
KRSNa." You become guru. Very simple thing."
"So this is the guru's qualification... So anyone of you, you can become guru. It is not that I am an extraordinary man, an extraordinary god Coming from some mysterious place. It is not that - it is very simple thing ...
"...Caitanya MahAprabhu says that yAre dekha tAre kaha kRSNa'-upadeza [Cc.
Madhya 7.128]. So I request you follow the Caitanya MahAprabhu's
instruction that you also, you become a guru ...
"If we actually want to become guru, there is necessity of many thousands
of gurus to teach this cheated public. But how to become guru? That is...
Caitanya MahAprabhu says, AmAra AjJAya: "By My order." "What is Your
order, Sir?" YAre dekha, tAre kaha 'kRSNa'-upadeza [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Then
you become guru. You simply advise people to follow KRSNa's
instruction. Then you become guru.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Govinda Prema" <govindaprema@wanadoo.fr>
To: "Indradyumna Swami" <Indradyumna.Swami@pamho.net>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Diksa guru
Dear Maharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you so much for your prompt reply. So I understand it, the
instruction from Madhya 7.128, is an instruction for everyone in
ISKCON to become a Diksa Guru? And we must all follow it, yes? And
this is actually how everyone in ISKCON has become a Diksa Guru thus far?
Thank you for continued time and attention to this matter, to help me better understand this important topic of Guru Tattva.
Thank you.
Your servant, Govinda Prema d.
----- Original Message ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Indradyumna Swami" <Indradyumna.Swami@pamho.net>
To: "Govinda Prema" <govindaprema@wanadoo.fr>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Diksa guru
Dear Govinda prema,
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
May I ask a question: are into to Ritvik philosophy? Or are you
simply trying to better understand the matter of diksa guru (
qualifications - service ) in ISKCON|?
Do have a disagreement with the particular way ISKCON chooses it's guru's?
I'm just wondering what is your interest. I don't mind replying to
strengthen your faith in an existing process, but I would be
hestitant to gradually enter into a debate if you have any leanings towards Ritvik.
It's because my time is so limited. We have begun our summer tour, which
engages me 18 hours a day - plus I have to answer over 60 letters a day.
Again, I don't mind coressponding; but I'd like to know your deeper
reason.
Your servant,
Indradyumna Swami
----Original Message -----
From: Govinda Prema
To: Indradyumna Swami
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:24 PM
Subject: Siksa gurus only
Dear Maharaja,
PAMHO AGTSP
So, Srila Prabhupada's books are our guiding light.
"The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class."
( C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport )" When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of guru."
( C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport )"One should take initiation from a bonafide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana."
( S.B. 4.8.54., purport )
Srila Prabhupada unequivocally stated that the diksa guru must be a maha-bhagavata. Aside from the qualification, Srila Prabhupada also taught that specific autorisation from the predecessor acarya was also essential before anyone could act as a diksa guru. Srila Prabhupada has not autorised such gurus, nor had he stated that any of his disciples were qualified to initiate. Everyone is simply encouraged to preach that they may know, and in so doing become siksa, or instructing, gurus. Every quote you supplied referred to this verse from the Caitanya-caritamrta "amara ajnaya guru hana", authorising siksa gurus, not diksa gurus.
"It is best not to accept any disciples."
( C.c. Madhya, 7.130, purport )
Your servant, Govinda Prema d.
----- Original Message ------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Indradyumna Swami" <Indradyumna.Swami@pamho.net>
To: "Govinda Prema" <govindaprema@wanadoo.fr>
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 10:42 PM
Subject: Quotes and more quotes ....
Dear Govinda Prema,
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
There are so many quotes and counter-quotes.
But I will humbly take your leave on this potential debate. You're
dead wrong, but it's enough for me to have to fight the Catholic
Church, politicians, skinheads and the Anti-cult movements. I don't
need ( or have time ) for any more battles.
Thank you.
Your servant,
Indradyumna Swami
****************
"One who is now the disciple is the next spiritual master."
--Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.43, purport
"Every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who
knows the scriptural injunctions and follows them practically in life,
and teaches them to his disciples. . . Keep trained up very rigidly
and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the
same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that
during the lifetime of the spiritual master you bring the prospective
disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept
disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession."
--letter to Tusta Krsna Swami, December 2, 1975
"So we have got this message from Krsna, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu,
from the six Gosvamis, later on Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta
Thakura. And we are trying our bit also to distribute this knowledge.
Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth. . . My Guru Maharaja is tenth from
Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute
this knowledge.
( Los Angeles arrival lecture, May 18, 1972 )
----- Original Message -----
From: "Govinda Prema" <govindaprema@wanadoo.fr>
To: "Indradyumna Swami" <Indradyumna.Swami@pamho.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Quotes and more quotes ....
Dear Maharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Quote 1 is not followed by the GBC, since if it believed anyone who is now a disciple, is the next spiritual master, then it would not restrict anyone who was a disciple by making authorisation from the GBC compulsory first.
The quote does not say "One who is voted in by the GBC, is the next spiritual master."
Quote 2 is also not followed by the GBC, since they allow Grand-disciples to initiate in the presence on their Gurus, thus disobeying the law.
Quote 3 does not refer to disciples succeeding as Diksa Gurus after their Guru departs. It refers to ALL of Srila Prabhupada's disciples continuing the preaching mission in HIS PRESENCE.
"I am the eleventh, YOU ARE the twelfth."
If it was referring to Diksa succession, it would have to say "You WILL BE twelfth."
Instead ALL disciples are simply asked to "distribute the knowledge" in Srila Prabhupada's presence - i.e. PREACH.
And all previous quotes, as we have seen, refer only to Siksa Gurus.
I can't see how I can be 'dead wrong', when:
a) You do not have even one quote to substantiate your position.
b) You are unable to debate your position.
No point fighting others if could already be fighting Srila Prabhupada by disobeying him, and acting as Diksa Guru unauthorisedly. Thus best to sort out your own position, before trying to preach to others, and convincing them to worship you as Good as God. Even if I may be wrong, you have to agree in principle, that to be correct on Guru Tattva is more important first, before preaching and misleading others that you are an authorised Bona Fide Guru.
Hence your hesitancy to discuss this issue is not at all Bona Fide.
Your servant, Govinda Prema d.
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