Back To Prabhupada, Issue 80, 2024, Interactive
This column answers challenges that our readers have forwarded to us for answering.
Venkata Bhatta Dasa ("VD"), gave an interview titled "Why Rtviks Are Still Wrong in 2024", which was published on 9/5/24. VD used to be the North American Director of ISKCON Communications, and the statements in the shaded boxes are from this interview. (All emphases added.)
"the adherents of the post-samadhi rtvik-vada philosophy would have us believe that that system is the way that initiations will take place in the Hare Krsna movement or in ISKCON for all time to come"
ISKCON leaders have referred to The Final Order as the "Rtvik Bible", and thus if a person claims he will prove that the "rtviks are still wrong", one would expect him at the very least to know what the rtviks claim. Otherwise, how can you ever prove them wrong? Yet, it is not claimed by us that Srila Prabhupada will be the diksa guru for eternity – "all time to come". Here is what TFO actually states:
"Srila Prabhupada will be the initiator within ISKCON for as long as the Society is extant."
(TFO, p. 81)
Which, if VD has any knowledge of Srila Prabhupada's teachings, he will know will only be for a few thousand years more, rather than for all of eternity.
"they ["rtviks" - Ed.] say that Prabhupada is saying that his grand-disciple is his disciple"
VD now refers to the May 28th, 1977 conversation. He claims that when Srila Prabhupada refers to having grand-disciples in that conversation, we state that this means Srila Prabhupada is referring to having his own disciples, rather than having grand-disciples. But we say nothing of the sort. Here is what we state in TFO regarding the use of the term "grand-disciple" by Srila Prabhupada:
"Srila Prabhupada is simply saying that when a guru orders his disciple to become a diksa guru, he will have grand-disciples ("his grand-disciple"), since the new diksa guru will then be initiating in his own right ("he becomes disciple of my disciple"). [...] But where is the order for this guruship to occur?"
(TFO, p. 41)
Thus, we fully accept that Srila Prabhupada is referring to his possible grand-disciples as being his grand-disciples. But we point out that Srila Prabhupada is stating that his grand-disciples will only exist if he gives an order for diksa guruship – which was never given.
"you're sort of implying that he couldn't really do a very good job of raising up even one disciple [...] to be able to, like, take on the mantle of diksa guru"
VD claims that we imply that Srila Prabhupada was unable to raise even one disciple to become a diksa guru. However, we do not imply this at all but rather accept that his disciples could have been pure devotees:
"The fact that Srila Prabhupada did not authorise any of his disciples to act as diksa guru does not necessarily mean that none of them were pure devotees."
(TFO, p. 59)
Thus, it is clear that VD has no idea what it is we state, and hence he has no idea what he is talking about.
Having made clear that he has no idea what he is talking about in regard to what we state, VD reveals that this gross ignorance also extends to Srila Prabhupada's teachings.
"Srila Prabhupada so much emphasized this idea of a living guru."
Srila Prabhupada never used the term "living guru" or "living spiritual master", even once. Rather, the one time someone brought up the "living guru" concept, Srila Prabhupada condemned it:
Srila Prabhupada: "As soon as you read Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ; that means you are following spiritual master." [...]
Madhudvisa: "I was referring to a living spiritual master."
Srila Prabhupada: "Li-... It is no-... Spiritual master is not the question of... Spiritual master is eternal. [...] when you read Bible that means you are following the spiritual master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ."
(Lecture, 2/10/68)
Srila Prabhupada dismisses the need for a "living" guru as an alternative to following the physically departed spiritual master through his teachings. Thus, he did not "emphasise" something he never even mentioned!
"where is even Prabhupada talking about the time where Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura ordered Prabhupada to take disciples? You won't find it."
Brahmananda: "He's asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna consciousness?"
Srila Prabhupada: "When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru-parampara. [...] A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru."
(Lecture, 28/10/75)
Srila Prabhupada talks about the fact that he became a guru only because his own guru specifically ordered him, despite VD claiming that Srila Prabhupada never talks about it!
"Just like we had to understand the context of May 28th, you have to understand the context of July 7th [...] one is asking expressly, Srila Prabhupada what will happen in terms of initiations after you leave us"
1) VD refers to the conversation of May 28th, 1977, and states that it refers to Srila Prabhupada being asked "expressly" about how initiations will be conducted after his physical disappearance. VD is thus referring to the following question asked in this conversation by Satsvarupa, as it is the only time there is any question asked regarding Srila Prabhupada physically departing:
"Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us."
2) Srila Prabhupada's answer to this question, which is given below, establishes that soon he would appoint some of his disciples as "rtviks" for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation:
Satsvarupa: "We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted."
Srila Prabhupada: "Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas."
Tamala Krsna: "Is that called rtvik-acarya?"
Srila Prabhupada: "Rtvik, yes."
3) At the outset of the July 9th, 1977 directive, it states why it is being issued:
"Srila Prabhupad indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as "rittik" -- representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation."
Which is exactly what we just quoted Srila Prabhupada stating he was going to do on May 28th, 1977. Thus, the July 9th directive is a response to the May 28th, 1977 conversation. Which, according to VD (see point 1), means the July 9th directive is a response to Srila Prabhupada being asked expressly how initiations will be conducted after his physical disappearance. And the July 9th directive expressly sets out a representative initiation system wherein Srila Prabhupada remains ISKCON's diksa guru. Thus, according to VD:
Srila Prabhupada's response to how initiations will be conducted after his physical disappearance was to set up a rtvik system wherein he remains ISKCON's diksa guru.
Which is exactly what the IRM states! Thus, how can the "rtviks" possibly be "wrong"?
In conclusion, VD has shown that he has no idea–
a) What the "rtviks" state;
b) What Srila Prabhupada states
–which has led him to succeed in showing: "Why the Rtviks Are Still Right in 2024"!
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