Gurus, Liberated Souls, Maha-Bhagavatas
Can Also Fall Down

26 Oct 2000

Dear Prabhu,

PAMHO AGTSP The issue was - can the bona fide Diksa Guru who is in the parampara fall down. That's what we were speaking off. We were NOT speaking about the possibility of an advanced devotee in general being captivated by maya - which is not disputed.

Now you already know there are many quotes from Srila Prabhupada that documents that a GURU in the parampara does NOT fall.

Now let's see what you have borrowed from Nayana-Ranjana in response:

  1. 8 quotes only 5 of which are from Srila Prabhupada.

  2. Out of these 5, 3 of them do not even MENTION the word Guru.

  3. So you down to 2 quotes from Srila Prabhupada that even deal with the subject in question.

Out of these 2 quotes the quote from the Bhagavatam is not even speaking of a Guru in the parampara but a BOGUS Guru who must be given up:

"If the spiritual master does not know what is actually to be done, what is actually not to be done, and he acts against the rules and regulations of the sastra, then such spiritual master may be given up."

One who is acting against the sastra is not a bona fide Guru in the parampara to begin with.

  1. So we are down to one quote from the CC. And this quote merely describes a possibility that will NEVER occur:

"One who accepts a visayi disciple is not a bona fide spiritual master.
Even if he is, his position may be damaged due to association with an unscrupulous visayi. If a so-called spiritual master accepts a disciple for his personal benefit or for material gain, the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple turns into a material affair, and the spiritual master becomes like a smarta-guru. There are many caste gosvamis who professionally create some disciples who do not care for them or their instructions. Such spiritual masters are satisfied simply to get some material benefits from their disciples. Such a relationship is condemned by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, who calls such spiritual masters and disciples a society of cheaters and cheated. They are also called baulas or prakrta-sahajiyas. Their aim is to make the connection between the spiritual master and the disciple into a very cheap thing. They are not serious in wanting to understand spiritual life."

Srila Prabhupada states that IF a bona fide Guru acts INCORRECTLY (accepting materialistic disciples for material gain) THEN his position will be damaged. But he then goes onto say that such behaviour is exhibited by sahjiyas. Obviously the bona fide Guru would NOT behave like that to begin with. This is WHY Srila Prabhupada BEGINS the quote in question with the statement:

"One who accepts a visayi disciple is NOT bona fide spiritual master."

He then goes onto say that EVEN if a Bona fide Guru DID do this, his position will be damaged.

Its like saying:

"IF a Bona Fide Guru has illicit sex 4 times a day for next 30 years, his position may be damaged."

No dispute. But such a bona fide Guru in the parampara would NOT do that in the first place.

Thus you have zero evidence that a Bona fide Guru in the parampara falls. So Yaso and myself are STILL waiting. Produce the evidence or issue an apology to us both.

Please prabhu if you finally wish to make a foray into the realm of philosophy you will have to READ our papers and understand the facts.
Just borrowing stuff from a brain-washed Guru sycophant like Nayana-Ranajana will not suffice. You are entering territory that the IRM has completely exhausted. Not a single person has even come close to writing anything on the subject to find a hole in our position. Even great minds like Hrdyananda and Jaydvaita just run once they are smashed.


---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Letter COM:3660966 (169 lines)
Subject: Gurus, liberated souls, maha-bhagavatas can also fall down

How can the truth create confusion? The only thing which has caused confusion is the idea that Gurus can fall down.

If one step in the calculation is wrond you are going to come up with the wrong answer.

TP Mumbai


Cc Madhya 24.330 purp

The spiritual master should study the disciple's inquisitiveness for no less than six months or a year. A spiritual master should not be very anxious to accept a disciple because of his material opulences. Sometimes a big businessman or landlord may approach a spiritual master for initiation.
Those who are materially interested are called visayis (karmis), which indicates that they are very fond of sense gratification. Such visayis sometimes approach a famous guru and ask to become a disciple just as a matter of fashion.
Sometimes visayis pose as disciples of a reputed spiritual master just to cover their activities and advertise themselves as advanced in spiritual knowledge. In other words, they want to attain material success. A spiritual master must be very careful in this regard. Such business is going on all over the world.
The spiritual master does not accept a materially opulent disciple just to advertise the fact that he has such a big disciple. He knows that by associating with such visayi disciples, he may fall down. One who accepts a visayi disciple is not a bona fide spiritual master. Even if he is, his position may be damaged due to association with an unscrupulous visayi.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.36,
Tokyo, January 30, 1974

But when one leaves a spiritual master, the spiritual master, there may be some reason. That reason is also given in the sastra, gurur api avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah(?). Karya akarya. If the spiritual master does not know what is actually to be done, what is actually not to be done, and he acts against the rules and regulations of the sastra, then such spiritual master may be given up. But so long you do not find the spiritual master is doing against the principles of sastra or guru, then if you give up the company of spiritual master, that is not good for you. That is your downfall.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in The Harmonist,
December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6

"If a preceptor accepts as his disciple one who refuses to be wholly guided by him, or if a disciple submits to a preceptor who is not wholly good, such preceptor and such disciple are, both of them, doomed to fall from their spiritual state."

"The disciple retains the right of renouncing his allegiance to the preceptor the moment he is satisfied that the preceptor is a fallible creature like himself. Nor does a good preceptor accept any one as his disciple unless the latter is prepared to submit to him freely."

From Hari-nama-cintamani
by Thakura Bhaktivinoda

Sastha pariccheda: Gurvavagya Kon sthane guru tyaga korite haibe-
Now I will discuss the situation when one can give up one's spiritual master.

Tave jodi erupa ghatana kabhu haya.
Asatsange gurura jogyata haya ksaya..

It unfortunately happens sometimes that by bad association, the spiritual master looses his qualifications.

Prathame chilena tini sadguru-pradhana.
Pare nama-aparadhe haina hatagyana..

In the beginning when the guru gave initiation to the disciple, he was sadguru-pradhana or a very qualified bona-fide spiritual master but later due to get involved with the ten offenses, his knowledge was diminished.

Vaisnava vidvaya kori' chadi' nama-rasa.
Krame krame hana artha-kaminira basa..

He gave up relishing the chanting of the Holy Names due to his envy towards the Vaisnavas. Due to this he gradually came under the control of the desires for money and women.

Sei guru chadi' sisya Sri Krsnakrpaya.
Sadguru labhiya punah suddhanama gaya..

One should reject such guru and again accept an advanced bonafide spiritual master and thus again relish the pure chanting of the Holy Name.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma;
Chapter 20, page 213

He explains the second instance in which one should reject his spiritual master.

dvitiya karana ei ye. guru-varana samaye gurudeva vaisnava o tattvajna chilena, kintu sanga-dose pare mayavadi va vaisnava- vidvesi hoiya jan; erupa guruke partyaga kara kartavya; grhita guru yadi mayavadi va vaisnava-vidvesi va papasakta The second instance in which one may reject the guru is when the guru was at the time of one's initiation a Vaisnava conversant in the Absolute Truth but later due to bad association became a mayavadi or an offender to the Vaisnavas.
That guru should be rejected.


SB 5.188.4 purp
A liberated soul is a person who has sufficient knowledge of this material world and is therefore unattached to the bodily conception of life.
But because of association with the modes of material nature for a very long time, even liberated souls sometimes become captivated by the illusory energy due to inattentiveness in the transcendental position.

Cc Adi 7.110 purp The Mayavadi philosophers have presented their arguments in such attractive, flowery language that hearing Mayavada philosophy may sometimes change the mind of even a maha-bhagavata, or very advanced devotee.

SB 5.7.1 bharatas tu maha-bhagavato SB 5.8 Summary Although Bharata Maharaja was very elevated, he fell down due to his attachment to a young deer.

Your servant, Nayana-ranjana das (Text PAMHO:3635244)