1. Reply to Sanatana Das
Dear Sanatana Prabhu,
You have correctly pointed out that the first point in Srila Prabhupada’s Will states:
“1. The Governing Body Commission (GBC) will be the ultimate managing authority of the entire International Society for Krishna Consciousness.”
However Srila Prabhupada had also previously defined the GBC as follows:
“The GBC has no other function or purpose other than to execute the instructions so kindly given by His Divine Grace and preserve and spread his Teachings to the world in their pure form.”
(Definition of GBC, GBC Resolution No.1, 1975)
Clearly if a body does anything other than only execute the instructions given by His Divine Grace, its ceases to be the GBC. We have proven that this has been the case since Srila Prabhupada’s departure, as documented in the ‘Back To Prabhupada’ magazine. Hence they need to first become the GBC by adhering to the above definition given for them by Srila Prabhupada, before they can claim to be the managing authority for ISKCON.
The question before us is very simple:
Were the 11 ritviks appointed by Srila Prabhupada ordered by Srila Prabhupada to cease acting in this capacity and turn into Diksa gurus?
The 2 quotes you have presented:
“One who is now the disciple is the next spiritual master.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam, 2.9.43)
“My Guru Mahäräja is tenth from Caitanya Mahäprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge. People are suffering.”
(Arrival lecture, 18/5/72)
do not authorize the 11 ritviks appointed by Srila Prabhupada in 1977 to cease acting as ritviks and turn into Diksa Gurus.
The first quote in full, actually states:
“One who is now the disciple is the next spiritual master. And one cannot be a bona fide and authorized spiritual master unless one has been strictly obedient to his spiritual master.”
Thus a disciple still needs to be authorized by being obedient to his guru in order to become guru. He still needs to act on his guru’s order – it is not automatic. So where is that order, authorizing the 11 ritviks to turn into Diksa gurus? Otherwise “one cannot be a bona fide and authorized spiritual master”.
The second quote simple states that Srila Prabhupada’s disciples are the twelfth generation from Lord Caitanya. There is no dispute about this. Indeed Srila Prabhupada is stating that already they ‘ARE the twelfth’, even in Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence, in 1972. So this is simply a statement about what generation they are, and not about their status as diksa gurus, for they are being told to distribute the knowledge in Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence. Yet no one is claiming every one of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples in 1972 was a already a diksa guru!
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1. The Governing Body Commission (GBC) will be the ultimate managing authority of the entire International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
This was Prabhupadas primary will. So please go to the local GBC (-but not against him-), if you have any problems.
There certainly are problems on which we have to work, but not like how you are doing it. Please think about this, and cooperate with the local GBC.
„Who is a disciple now, will become a spiritual master in the future.” (S.B. 2.9.43, purport)(I translated this from the hungarian so you know which part of the purport he is quoting, but this is not the original english)
(Here he quotes from an: arrival lecture, Los Angeles, may 18, 1972) He quotes between these parts:
„So we got this message from Krisna, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, six goswamis……….. I am the eleventh you are the twelfth. Go Spread this science”(This is also not the original english, just the translation, so you know wich part he quotes)
Sanatana das
2. Reply to Radheshyam Dasa
Dear Radheshyam prabhu,
Hare Krishna! Thank you for your letter. You say you have read the magazine “from the beginning to the end”. Yet you have been unable to point out a single mistake in it. Why not point out where a single word in the magazine is not true? And if you cannot do this, then surely how can the truth be the ‘wrong path’?
You also claim that I am:
“arguing with a person, without whom you wouldn’t have known about Krishna consciousness.”
The reality is that none of us, including His Holiness Sivarama Swami, would not have known about Krishna consciousness, if it was not for Srila Prabhupada. I became a devotee as a result of reading Srila Prabhupada’s books. And thus how can you say I am arguing with Srila Prabhupada? In the ‘Back To Prabhupada’ magazine it simply states the truth about Srila Prabhupada’s position. So I cannot possibly be arguing with Srila Prabhupada if I am agreeing with him!
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Haribol dear prabhu! Thank you for sending this letter.
As I had mentioned already, I have read the magazine you sent me. from the beginning to the end. This is my opinion, shortly: You are on the wrong path. you too are arguing with a person, without whom you wouldn’t have known about Krisna Consciousness. And since this is what happened, you owe him respect /The nice salutation is not enough/. if you have any observations, that you find bad, then be patient, and if Krisna wants you to correct it, then he will authorize you /he will give „necessary” authorization /.
dont want to be BOSS „right away”!!!! I once again regret that you have become a spokesperson for this broadside.
László Fejős (Radheshyam das)
3. Reply to Caitya Guru Das
Dear Caitya Guru Prabhu,
1) Srila Prabhupada acting as the Guru of his own society does not change any laws of disciplic succession, since the quote in question does not prohibit a Guru from acting after his disappearance. It only prohibits a DISCIPLE from acting in his spiritual master’s physical presence. This is accepted by His Holiness Jayadvaita Swami, who His Holiness Sivarama Maharaja has said we should all read to understand the facts, who has stated about the quote in question that:
“I accept that this quotation doesn’t “prove” that a departed acarya can’t initiate. I never said it does.”
(HH Jayadvaita Swami, June 4th, 2004)
2) Therefore the person who has broken this law is actually His Holiness Sivarama Swami, who was the first person to break this law of disciplic succession, by allowing his disciple HH Maha Visnu Swami, to become diksa guru in his presence, as the following GBC resolutions states:
“It is hereby resolved that an exception to the present ISKCON law regarding disciples initiating in the presence of their guru has been made in the case of HH MahaVisnu Goswami.”
(GBC Resolution, 2001)
3) The IRM has not proposed any changes because the gurus have fallen. This was done by the GBC who changed their first guru system, the zonal acharya system, which ran from 1978-1987, which His Holiness Jayadvaita Swami later claimed was “maya”, because so many of the gurus fell down. It is the GBC who changed Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th directive, claiming that the 11 persons named in that directive as ritviks, were actually named as Diksa Gurus, even though Srila Prabhupada does not state this in the directive:
"Srila Prabhupada named eleven devotees to give diksa" [as initiating gurus]
(Sivarama Swami, Siksa Outside ISKCON?, p.28, Lal Publishing, 2002) *
* "Almost immediately after Srila Prabhupada's departure, devotees he had requested to give diksa fell down.
(Of the eleven he named, only four have not fallen)."
We are simply calling for Srila Prabhupada’s original order to be restored. You can read the July 9th directive for yourself, and you will see that it is stated in there *3* times that the 11 devotees are named only as ritviks. That they were named as Diksa Gurus is a complete fabrication.
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Dear prabhu!
"Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual Master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accepty disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic sucession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual MAster and spread Krishna Consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy." (Srila Prabhupada's letter 2nd of December 1975).
If Srila Prabhupada wanted to change the working or laws of disciplic succession in his latest times,he would'nt do it through letter,but rather books and lectures as he did with all his important teachings.You know this,because Prabhupada was intelligent,and he mantions the important things many times ,especially in his books.
You cannot change teachings given before with a letter not to speak of the change of the whole vaisnava tradition and philosophy.
If you think that because many guru has fallen therefore the need of change is justified, the answer is that there are those who not fallen.
Your servant CG.
4. Reply to ‘Jagannatha, lord of the universe’
It is not possible for truth to cause Vaisnava aparadha, otherwise dharma itself would be the biggest offender. No one has ever been able to point out anything untruthful in what has been written in ‘Back To Prabhupada’. This is why everyone is told simply to not read what we have written, rather than addressing what we have written, because it cannot be addressed, as it is all true. But, you do not need to take our word for it – you can read and check for yourselves.
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Dear everyone!
Whoever offers ritvik links( out of kindness) please think of the quote below:
The verse from CC about the vaisnava aparadha which like mad elephant destroyes the bhakti lata etc..
5. Reply to ‘Anonymous’
Dear Prabhuji,
Hare Krishna! Thank you for your letter. Points from your letter shall be enclosed in speech marks “ “ thus, with our answers following underneath in bold:
You say:
“It would be better, if you would focus on developing a personal relationship with Krishna.”
But it is possible to only do this by serving the bona fide guru first:
“Do not ever try to approach Krishna directly. Anyone who talks of Krishna without service to Guru will not be successful.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 27 September 1967)
And this in turn is only possible if one knows WHO that bona fide guru is. Is it Srila Prabhupada or His Holiness Sivarama Swami? Hence answering this question is key to developing a personal relationship with Krishna. Therefore by serving the bona fide guru Srila Prabhupada, by introducing others to him, both ourselves and others will be able to develop a personal relationship with Krishna. And this is exactly what our papers do – they establish the identity of the bona fide guru for everyone, so that he can be served, and a personal relationship with Krishna developed.
“Are you thinking that you are pleasing Krishna by quarreling with each other?”
Do you think we are pleasing Krishna by kicking out his representative, the bona fide spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, from his own society? By giving Srila Prabhupada to others, by establishing his supreme position, we are surely pleasing Krishna, because we are serving the Guru, Srila Prabhupada. And as we just quoted Srila Prabhupada, “Anyone who talks of Krishna without service to Guru will not be successful.”
“By the way, I am not picking a "side" to be on, because I don’t even have a mind, to read all this quarreling.”
How then can you possibly know what we are writing about if you have not read it? If we are writing the truth about Srila Prabhupada, how can any follower of Srila Prabhupada possibly object to reading the truth about him? Rather such literature is very relishable for any follower of Srila Prabhupada.
“I will read something from Prabhupada, that is related to Krishna instead.”
1) Why would you read this from Srila Prabhupada? Why not read it from His Holiness Sivarama Swami who has also written about Krishna? So you are happy to take knowledge from Srila Prabhupada, but at the same time object to us establishing his position as the guru who alone is giving us all this knowledge!
2) Why not also read something from Srila Prabhupada, about himself, the bona fide guru, who gives us Krishna? These are the instructions from Srila Prabhupada which we are presenting. What is the harm in reading this truth from Srila Prabhupada?
“It would be better if you would do the same.”
It would be better if we do what Srila Prabhupada asked us to do, He says:
“Anyone who talks of Krishna without service to Guru will not be successful.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 27 September 1967)
We will not make the mistake of trying to jump over the guru to try and reach Krishna directly. Rather we prefer to serve Guru, which necessarily involves a) determining his identity b) establishing his supreme position, preaching about him, and giving him to others, which is what our literature, which you have admitted you have not even read, does.
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Message: Its amazing that this is still a topic.
It would be better, if you would focus on developing a personal relationship with Krishna.
Are you thinking that you are pleasing Krishna by quarelling with eachother?
By the way, I am not picking a "side" te be on, because I dont even have a mind, to read all this quarelling.
I will read something from Prabhupada, that is related to Krishna instead.
It would be better if you would do the same
your servant