Nonsense Challenges


Back To Prabhupada, Issue 78, 2023, Interactive

his is a column in which we answer various challenges that our readers have come across and forwarded to us for answering, and they are presented in the shaded boxes below. All emphases added.

" 13:30 minutes in. Proof "Rtvik" Philosophy is false, straight from Srila Prabhupada's mouth. So much hype for no reason. Listen closely, if you don't understand, listen again. Posting this for those who are confused about the subject. I'd rather go with Prabhupada's words As It Is. Not Prabhupada's words as others interpret."

1) This announces that there will be some "proof" directly from "Srila Prabhupada's mouth" that the fact that Srila Prabhupada is ISKCON's diksa guru (which guru hoax supporters label "rtvik") is false. However, the reference given presents only the series of 6 questions and answers which took place on May 28th, 1977, and which we covered on pages 8-9. Therein, we noted that one needs to use mind reading to reach conclusions that constitute "proof" that the IRM's position – that Srila Prabhupada is ISKCON's diksa guru – is not correct. But since no such mind reading powers have been proven to exist, this so-called "proof" also does not exist.

2) The article on pages 8-9 dealt specifically with assuming that the arguments given by the guru hoaxers were true and accepting the mind reading which resulted from that. But what if we do not use mind reading? Then what are we left with? We are left with two things:

a) Srila Prabhupada is asked how initiations will go on after his physical departure and he answers "officiating acarya/rtvik". These are complete answers, because after giving them Srila Prabhupada stops speaking and allows other questions to continue.

b) Srila Prabhupada then emphasises *3* times that in order for such rtviks to then change into diksa gurus, it would actually require an order for that to happen:

"On my order";
"Be actually guru, but by my order";
"When I order you become guru".

Thus, absent the mind reading, you are left with:

i) The fact that rtviks will conduct initiations after Srila Prabhupada physically departs;
ii) The condition that for these rtviks to become diksa gurus will require an order.

3) Was such an order for the rtviks to turn into diksa gurus on Srila Prabhupada's physical departure given? There are 3 possibilities. It was given before this May 28th, 1977 conversation, during it, or after it.

i) Before: If Srila Prabhupada was referring to an order he had already given then he would have said:

"When I had ordered you become guru"

rather than:

"When I order you become guru".

Even if one claims that Srila Prabhupada was referring to a previous order, no one has produced such a "become guru" order which states that rtviks would instantly turn into diksa gurus as soon as Srila Prabhupada physically departs. This is what would have been needed for the rtviks to have ceased functioning as rtviks as soon as Srila Prabhupada physically departed.

ii) During: There is no order given for anything during the conversation. Rather, we have Srila Prabhupada stating he will recommend rtviks/officiating acaryas afterwards, followed by a further 4 questions and answers. That's all. No orders for diksa gurus or anything else.

iii) After: After May 28th, 1977, Srila Prabhupada only gives an order for rtviks on July 9th, 1977, just as he stated in this conversation he was going to do. No orders for these rtviks to then turn into diksa gurus were given.

Hence, there was no order for rtviks to turn into diksa gurus on Srila Prabhupada's physical departure.

4) What about Srila Prabhupada using the words "grand-disciple" and "disciple of my disciple"? However, ironically, this is the strongest evidence that Srila Prabhupada had ordered rtviks to initiate on his behalf after his physical departure. Why? Because right before he uses these words, Srila Prabhupada is asked:

"So they may also be considered your disciples."

To which Srila Prabhupada replies:

"Yes, they are disciples."

He cannot here be referring to:

a) The disciples of his disciples because Srila Prabhupada immediately makes a point next of stating that if diksa gurus were to exist, then they would not be his disciples, but his "grand-disciples" and "disciple of my disciple".

b) Nor, can the question and answer be referring to initiations in Srila Prabhupada's physical presence, since Srila Prabhupada had just stated that in his physical presence the disciples are his –

"Because in my presence one should not become guru"
(Previous statement made by Srila Prabhupada)

– and thus, the question had already just been asked and answered.

Therefore, if we put Srila Prabhupada's two statements together, we have Srila Prabhupada saying regarding initiations after his physical disappearance:

i) Yes, they are disciples.
ii) They are not disciples (but grand-disciple, disciple of my disciple).

There is only one way these two statements, spoken consecutively, can make sense. And that is if no. ii) was speaking about what would happen if Srila Prabhupada were to order diksa gurus. Which is exactly what he states:

"his grand-disciple ... When I order you become guru, he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple."

Thus, statement no. i) is definite – yes, they are disciples.

But statement no. ii) is conditional, linked to diksa gurus being ordered.

Therefore, in conclusion, without mind reading, all we have is "proof" for rtviks, not diksa gurus, being ordered to conduct initiations, for after Srila Prabhupada's physical departure.

"Srila Prabhupada did not name temples after himself, magazines after himself, or anything but his books and tape ministry. Srila Prabhupada did not make the international society for Prabhupada consciousness, ritviks, IRM or any other such nonsense."

1) The very first statement made is incorrect. Srila Prabhupada did name a temple after himself:

"Formerly, this place, Manor, was known as Piggot's Manor. Now we have named Bhaktivedanta Manor."
(Srila Prabhupada, Lecture, 22/8/73)

This refers to Bhaktivedanta Manor, the largest ISKCON temple in Europe.

2) Srila Prabhupada also did "make rtviks". He did this in the July 9th, 1977 directive.

3) It is claimed that the IRM is "nonsense". But the IRM simply states that ISKCON should be managed according to Srila Prabhupada's desires. Thus, if one claims that wanting ISKCON to be run as Srila Prabhupada desired is "nonsense", then it is actually the person who makes such a claim who is "nonsense" – as there is nothing wrong in obeying Srila Prabhupada.

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